If it does mean punishment – then where in the new covenant does it say that God is still going to punish us even though he has punished Jesus in our place?

You say you “see no reason why the Holy spirit doesn’t similarly discipline God’s people in this very real way” – what about all the bible verses in the new testament that clearly state that we are no longer under punishment – that our sins are no longer being imputed to us, that having been cleansed of sin we should have no more consciousness of sin, that we are no longer in condemnation, that we are no longer under law but under grace.

Are we being punished for something other than sin?
If so what is this “other thing” we are being punished for and why? Does this really equate to the exile the israelites suffered where they were very clearly punished for their sin because they were still under the law.

God doesn’t need to reclaim what is his – because quite simply because of what Jesus did on the cross the “church” and I do not really like that word nowadays because people equate it with demoninational building structure rules and doctrine and not just the body of Christ in the whole world, the church IS his bride – nothing in the new testament to indicate anywhere that God needs to reclaim his bride.

Now if you want to talk about individuals within the body of Christ being able to walk away from their salvation – you will have no argument with me – BUT that cannot be classified as exile because a) the separation isn’t of God’s doing it’s the choice of man to walk away and b) Hebrews clearly states that anyone choosing to do that cannot come back into the church as that would mean crucifying Christ twice and that isn’t going to happen -so they cannot be “reclaimed”.

I’m sorry to labour the point but I really would like your explanation about how God can punish us for our sin at the same time as saying he isn’t going to and that he doesn’t even look on our sin he looks on us and sees Jesus. Maybe my brain is not sufficiently intellectually developed to understand this?

Can’t go along with your definition of what Paul means by the fruit – certainly I know there is no way I can develop that fruit in myself – I am just grateful to know like everything else provided by God’s Grace I am a grateful recipient of that fantastic fruit. I can tap into it and use it in situations – hence I can obey Paul when he tells me to have joy in all circumstances – because it’s not my joy – human joy depends on the circumstances – the joy I am able to experience in bad situations is spiritually joy given to me by the holy spirit and within the power he gives me to exercise that joy.

Do you know the wonderful thing about grace is even if we end up being the worst Christian on the face of the planet – God isn’t cross with us – he still loves us – after all – he loved us while we were yet sinners – he died for us while we were sinners – how much more does he love us now we have chosen to follow him (however badly). I know for certain as I have experienced it in my life that God keeps loving me even when I let him down.

By the way I am most certainly not excusing our moral disobedience just trying to say that because we never could or never will be sinless and perfect that is exactly why Jesus came and that one drop of Jesus’ blood in repayment was worth so so much more to God than our sin *(that isn’t to belittle sin in any way – just magnificying what God did for us) – so we are so completely washed clean that all our sin past present and future (and there will be future sin) has magnificantly, wonderfully, amazingly, marvellously, miraculously, mercifully and graciously (and I hope your friend who is keen on spelling isn’t reading this!) removed ALL our sin from us.

What a super marvellous wonderful amazing awesome God is he.

God bless xxx

God’s faithfulness to his people mean that he kept the covenant with them, blessing their faithfulness and punishing their iniquity. I see no reason to believe that the Holy Spirit doesn’t similarly discipline God’s people in this very real way. Through Christ, we become part of God’s people who are in relationship with him. A relationship where he leads and directs and shows the way.

Whilst it is true that Christ has accomplished all the work of salvation (That sounds a little Calvinist to me), I think it’s cheap to just excuse our moral disobedience with this notion that it’s all really ok, that we ‘already have this fruit in out spirit’. The point Paul seems to be making in that passage is that the Fruit is an existential manifestation of a close walk with Jesus. If our walk with Jesus doesn’t produce real, tangible and tasteful fruit, can we really say we have much of a walk at all?

Exile is about God reclaiming what is his. The Exiled church is the church that God still cares about, showing his resilient love that will not simply let them be, but will do what must be done for their good and for his purposes.

Also thing you need to reread your ephesians – there is only ONE fruit – not 9 – they are not separate fruits that we try and obtain – they are the character of the Holy Spirit – and he is ONE not separate parts – he is ALL Love he is ALL JOY he is ALL PEACE (etc) – and even more amazing all of us who are believers (and I assume you are Nathan) – already have this fruit already in our spirit – the Lord is just longing for us to appropriate what he has already given us. This means in bad situations we can rejoice because we have joy, peace etc already on the inside of us and we don’t have to look to our fleshly response but to the response to a situation in the spirit. Anyway there is another message.

Ian as I read biblcial prophecy about and during the exile (and I am indeed at that very point in my bible reading through the year) God was indeed punishing them – he was indeed going to bring back a remnant – was he calling them back? did they have to respond? (a good one for Nathan and calvin – were they capable of responding – or was God going to do it anyway.

Nice one Enola – but of course that would be playing about with the Word – and aren’t we specifically told not to play about with the Word, indeed as you say the Holy Tongue is utterly precise. The letter Alef ISN’T -inserted in the word Golah how ever much you might like it to be and it makes a nice theory – hence exile still means exile – because God always uses the words he wants to.

Oh, and F.Y.I. – Hebrew, the Holy Tongue, is utterly precise. In Hebrew, “Exile” is called “Golah.” But this very word also hints the path to redemption. By inserting the letter Alef, the word “Golah — Exile” becomes “Geulah — Redemption.”

I think the idea of ‘bigger’ sin is a trick question. All sin is idolatry.

Your definition of what happened to the Jews in exile (totally uncontacted by God) and the spirit being “less” active really doesn’t work at all and I suspect you know in your heart it doesn’t work but pride maybe stops you admitting this.

Think I will stick to how the Bible explains the problems in the church today rather than picking on a idea from a theologian. I find every answer to my questions in the bible – not in an imaginery exile under the new covenant that isnt’ even mentioned in the Bible, doesn’t explain anything and doesn’t fit any model given to us in God’s word.

Exile was not the means by which God brought his people back – exile was the means by which he punished them for their sins. There is no record that once they started worshipping him in exile he brought them back? It is true that once they returned they never worshipped idols again – but then it is also true that the rejected their saviour – which to you is the bigger sin?

No response then on how it works regarding whether the Holy Spirit comes with us or not then or how Christ deals with his body.

I shall be intrigued to see how your thinking changes when you start examining the NT in detail next year.

Exile was the means by which God brought his people back to himself when they had abandoned him. God did not cease to care for his people when he sent them into exile. It was precisely because he cared for them that he acted in that way.

What I have noticed is that in the context of God’s redeeming love, the Lord does allow the consequences of sin to catch up with us. Like the man who was excommunicated in the Corinthian fellowship, in order that his sin would lead him back to God.