Don’t try to live for God – let God live through you.
Don’t try and “love your neighbour” because the bible tells you too – say to God I know I can’t love my neighbour in my own flesh – but I know I have your supernatural power – please flow through me
When you see things you do wrong – don’t say – I must change myself – just turn to God
THe christian life isn’t a changed life – it’s an exchanged life – we must exchange our reliance on ourselves to reliance on God
When you were a sinner you had a sin nature – you could do good – but it didn’t change your nature – you still had a sin nature. When you became born again your sin nature was removed and you gained a brand new nature through the HOly SPirit – now you are still capable of sinning but it doesn’t change your new nature – you are still perfect in your spirit.
You don”t have to just survive. THe Christian life is meant to be supernatural or else it is superficial – if we are not walking in supernatural ability we must be walking according to the flesh (not IN the flesh just according to the flesh – when we are born again we are no longer IN the flesh but IN the spirit – therefore we cannot walk IN the flesh but we can still choose to walk according to the flesh. If we are born again we are IN the spirit but we still have to choose to walk according to the spirit as according to the flesh – that is what we achieve by the renewing of our mind.
Focus on what Christ has done for us rather than thinking about what we have got to do for Christ.
We can’t push darkness out by striving – all we can do is shine the light (Jesus) and the darkness naturally disappears – the more light we allow to sink into our minds – the more the darkness will just disappear without us having to try (impossibly) to shoo it out.
Don’t try and “polish” the flesh – don’t trying to improve ourselves – just art thinking about and concentrating on and claiming the new identity we have in Christ.

I cherish the journey. The life lived with Jesus.

Additionally, I think it’s a little ridiculous to deny my Christian walk on the grounds of my writing style. I do actually talk like that, it’s an issue my friends often poke fun at! I just find pain easier to articulate with words – it unlocks a certain level of creativity within myself. You probably won’t hear me talk about how much I ‘love’ Jesus, in that sense, because I find that language really uncomfortable and awkward, what with Jesus being a man and all. Jesus ‘aint my boyfriend!

Yes, our sin nature dies with Jesus. Discipleship is the reality of that death. Discipleship – as Jesus calls it, shouldering our crosses – is the crucifixion of Jesus made tangible in our lives.

I’m not sure why you think I don’t believe God has forgiven my sins.

And, frankly I’m a pretty rubbish Christian, at the end of the day, which would be why the glory of God is often not my first thought. But I’m a disciple of Jesus all the same. A pretty rubbish one, but a disciple none the less.

Yes Jesus talks about the treasure to be found – but correct me if I am wrong – in his parables isn’t the treasure actually FOUND by the people who look – they aren’t still LOOKING for it. I have FOUND my treasure – I AM in the kingdom – I don’t still have to SEARCH for it. I searched for it thanks to the Holy Spirit – I found him thanks again to the HOly Spirit – I now HAVE my treasure – I HAVE Jesus.

Your writings in this matter have felt like a “sermon on theology” not writings from your heart.
“In my own spirituality I seek God yet knowing he is paradoxically already there” “I would seek to affirm that the walk if discipleship is led by God….. ” who talks like that? When you are talking about your doubts and depression you seem to talk from your heart – when you talk about your salvation you talk as if you have swallowed a theology dictionary? Can’t understand why you don’t talk about your salvation in the same heartfelt terms?

I am sorry you are wrong Ian – discipleship isn’t the means by which our sin nature dies – our sin nature was killed and dealt with on the cross by Jesus – Romans and Hebrews make this abundantly clear. You cannot susbstantiate anything you have said through the Word of God. This is the musings of man. (And if Bonhoeffer then the musings of a man who had murder on his mind).

Over in my real world that Gospel stands firm and allows me to experience true peace and joy in the face of any situation. Your perception of warm fuzzy for me is actual reality and sees me through any tribulation without me disolving into doubt and depression because I know who I am in Christ. Maybe you might like to try it sometime. I don’t need to “imagine” God has forgiven my sins – his WORD tells me he has – God is not a liar – that’s good enough for me.

The Gospel being real doesn’t surely depend on our actions does it? Surely surely the Gospel is real regardless of our actions – the Gospel was real before you were born Ian – nothing you do affects the Gospel?

Do you really see the writers of the new testament writing about all their personal problems and doubts? Would you like to point me to that particular epistle I must have missed it. I see the writers of the new testament trying to help Christians who haven’t understood what they’ve got – get what they’ve got – which is all I am trying to do for you.

And actually – why isn’t the most important “stuff” on your heart the stuff of praise and worship and glory and magnification of God rather than your depression?

Obviously nothing I say is of interest to you on this subject and you seem happy in your woeful and doubting and depressive state so I will leave this discussion for now. You will excuse me if I continue to maintain (as you call it) my warm fuzzy – which has never led me into the doubting and depression you seem to experience on a regular basis.

Harsh words I know Ian but how can anyone help you if you choose not to be helped.

Whilst it is certainly true Jesus is always with us (Matthew 28), he still gives the command to follow. He describes kingdom of God as the treasure to be found, the coin to be reclaimed. Certainly the spirituality of the people of God indicates this notion of ‘seeking’ is part of our heritage, yet all the while maintaining the notion that God is near to us.

the day of my trouble I seek the Lord;
in the night my hand is stretched out without wearying
(Psalm 77:2)

I have set the LORD always before me;
because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken.
Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices;
my flesh also dwells secure.
(Psalm 16:8-9)

In my own spirituality I ‘seek’ God in Christ, yet knowing he is paradoxically already there.

I believe that I did address the idea presented in Ephesians 2. We become disciples of Jesus and this is the work of God’s grace. The notion of discipleship as grace does not conflict with the idea that God saved us by grace, because we are disciples of Jesus by grace!

I don’t see how the idea of discipleship as grace conflicts with the notion that our sinful nature is put to death. Discipleship is the means by which that nature dies. You are certainly right, discipleship is the life lived walking in the Spirit. I would also seek to affirm that the walk of discipleship is led by God, he works in us to cause us to walk more and more by the Spirit. Thus discipleship is not our work, it is God’s.

When I said imaginary gospel I refer to forgiveness of sins as a mere idea. The tangible gospel, gained through costly discipleship is the obedient walk with Jesus which causes us to live differently. Yes, God in Christ has dealt with all our sin. The means by which they are dealt with is discipleship. It’s all well and good feeling joyous and glad and peaceful because we imagine God has forgiven our sins. It’s quite the warm fuzzy. But over in the real world I don’t think that gospel stands. The forgiveness of sins is associated with the transformed life in the Scriptures. Just because we ‘feel’ more joy or peace does not mean the Gospel is real. It is real when we live lives of mercy and justice and change and beauty and all the things of Jesus.

I write about stuff that’s on my heart because that’s what I see the writers of Scripture doing. In fact I’m reading through Job as we speak and am astonished by the amazing grace shown him by God.

If he has moved in then this must lead us to ask what difference it makes that Jesus lives on the inside of us?

I still disagree with your definition of grace – we weren’t justified in following – we were justified before we followed – that’s what Grace did on the cross. Whilst we were yet sinners ………. what we do when we choose to follow is appropriate that justification.

Discipleship cannot be grace – grace is all of God and nothing of us – God is not a disciple of ours – therefore discipleship cannot be grace. In grace we can become disciples but this is not the same at all. Grace is still grace regardless of whether we choose to become disciples – therefore Grace must exist outside of discipleship?

Again you haven’t actually answered my points raised regarding what Ephesians and Romans means –

What do you mean by an imaginary gospel? the forgiveness of my sin is far from a mere idea – I don’t get what you are saying? Are you saying I am wrong to believe that my sins past present and future are dealt with already? My gospel is so real that I walk in it every day of my life and I experience love joy peace patience and all the blessing my amazing father has given to me – do you?

You say you believe that discipleship is the life lived with Jesus walking in his forgiving love and generous grace and yet your writings are always about your problems as opposed to God’s magnificance? How does this equate to what you are saying here?

Romans 10:9: if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is the most extraordinary confession of the Christian church. See, if God raised Jesus from the dead it validates everything he said and did. Thus every command and direction of Jesus gains the weight of the authority of God himself. We could say this confession is the point of origin for our faith. The resurrected Jesus is the Jesus who meets us. When we confess him, we are affirming his full identity. We are also affirming his lordship over our lives.

When I see Jesus calling people in the pages of Scripture – the same call we receive – I see, for example: “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.” (Matthew 4:19). Additionally in Mark 1:17 and Luke 5:10. John’s account differs, but we see the same idea of call in John 1:43. Interesting to reflect on the link between confession and calling in the last part of John 1. Jesus’ identity is to be received along with his call. The call to discipleship is grace: Without grace none would be called! Thus Jesus invites sinners to be his disciples and thus brings them into a right relationship with God.

I didn’t say getting discipleship right made us right with God. I said being a disciple made us right with God. If we are disciples, we accept everything Jesus said and did and seek to have his presence in our lives. This includes the forgiveness of sins wrought by the cross. This approach makes discipleship indispensable to our saving faith, not just an optional extra. Thus discipleship is our daily reality of being right before God.

As I have said earlier: Discipleship is grace. I am certainly not saying discipleship is something we earn in our own effort. Quite the opposite, in fact. Jesus called sinners to follow him. In following they were justified before God.

I cannot accept an imaginary gospel where forgiveness of sin is a mere idea. Unless the Gospel is real, it isn’t good news to anyone. Discipleship is the life lived with Jesus, walking in his forgiving love and generous grace.

You still aren’t showing me in the bible where you get that discipleship is the means by which God imparts his forgiving grace. I believe the bible tells us in Ephesians 2 verses 5 to 10 that Grace came to us while we were yet sinners – we appropriate it solely by faith and not by works and that faith itself is a gift from God so we can’t even strive to get that or boast in it.

Again – the quote from Bonhoeffer – show me where in the Bible it says this? I believe Ephesians 2 would beg to differ. No – obeying and walking closely with Jesus comes out of a loving attitude because we are so grateful and so in love with him. Discipleship isn’t us being “right with God” because none of us get discipleship right 24 7 and yet God still loves us thankfully. God made us right with him on the cross – the way we appropriate this gift of grace is through faith. We never can and never will get right with God through discipleship or anything else that requires anything of us. We were made right with God by God through Jesus and that when we were still sinners – we didn’t have a choice in the matter. This isn’t saying that therefore the whole world are saved – because for a gift to be of any use to anyone it has to be accepted – belief is how we accept it according to the bible.

No – forgiveness comes purely throught Jesus, by Jesus, once for all at the cross and by the cross and through the cross. There is no other way to achieve forgiveness – it has already been done for you. Have a check through Romans and look at the difference between sin used as a verb and sin used as a noun – we have a sin nature (noun) Jesus died to eradicate that sin nature (noun) when we are born again that sin nature IS eradicated (noun). yes we continue to sin (verb) and that is what jesus commanded people to stop doing – but once we have become a new creation our sin nature is gone and we aren’t condemned. Discipleship is retraining ourselves to walk in the spirit not in the flesh (Romans again!)

Your reference to James 2 v 19 a) is incorrect – it does not say that the demons believe in the resurrected Jesus – it says the demons believe there is one God. James’ teaching on Faith without Works – what he is saying is there is no point saying you believe and not acting it out – if you say you believe then your actions should confirm it – like saying you have faith that a plane can fly and actually getting on the plane – (ie: proving your belief) rather than saying you have faith that a plane can fly but not actually being willing to trust it and get in it. Look at John 6 v 29 to understand what James is saying.

Discipleship, according to Bonhoeffer, is not how we get right with God. Discipleship IS us being right with God. Note the difference. If we are disciples, we are right with God. That means believing and obeying him, walking closely with Jesus.

What I see in Jesus is that call to follow. That is a call of repentance and faith and trust and obedience. Again, he called his disciples to follow. In following, they were reconciled to God and were put to work loving their neighbours. Please don’t hear what I’m not saying. Discipleship is not about us doing stuff. It is about us walking with Jesus and doing life with him.

Please refer to the paragraph in my blog post:

When Jesus is given a sinner to deal with, he saves her life and gives her the charge to ‘sin no more’. His forgiving words are accompanied by a call. That’s not the only time the forgiveness and call are received together. The famous ‘woman at the well’ receives grace and then sets to work telling others. Even the traitor, Peter, is restored to Jesus with the call to obey, to be his follower. Forgiveness, for Jesus, is tied with real-world transformation.

Yes Jesus called unsaved unrighteous unjustified unredeemed people and told them he would make them fishers of men. He called – they followed – that’s all they were required to do. He got cross when they didn’t demonstrate faith (total reliance on him) and tried to say and do things in their own strength. I don’t ever see him getting cross because they weren’t stressing out enough – rather he got cross when they were stressing out. How does this support your point of view?

I don’t understand your point “it is the means by which God imparts his grace to his beloved?” What – our stressing out? If this is biblically correct please show me where. I do often give you the challenge to back up your point of view from scripture and you always seem reluctant to do so?

Jesus only asks everything of us because he knows we can never achieve anything in our own strength – that’s why he had to do it all for us in the first place. Growing in discipleship isn’t retraining our flesh to get it right but realising more and more that we can never get it right in our flesh and just need to depend on Jesus constantly for everything. Until we surrender completely our self righteous thoughts that tell us we can eventually do it in our own strength – we block the power of God being able to work in us and through us.