Ian: I’ve been thinking about commentaries. Specifically, about your mention of “loads of commentaries available these days, by God’s providence. So, God has provided many resources for us to use”. These are one of the ways you’ve said you interpret scripture.
I want to articulate a criticism which I think is worth voicing. There are a number of Bible verses which seem to refer to women in what could be called a negative light (and it is undeniable that, for a long while, this was the orthodox interpretation of said verses). Now, the next step from this appears to be for one to check a commentary to place these verses into proper historical context (as we’ve discussed). Through this, and prayer/contemplation, you can arrive at an interpretation of scripture which rings ‘true’, and provides an alternative to that surface reading.
Right.
Here’s what I’d like to recast that process as: instead of coming to the most likely conclusion that the Bible is wrong on a topic like sexism against women, one searches really hard for any other interpretation than what the text seems to be saying. One doesn’t let passages bother one when you can explain them away through commentary from a totally non-Biblical human source. Through this process, you can rationalise the stark dissonance between the mindsets of the bronze-age palestinians and the western enlightenment heritage of our society, while simultaneously fostering a blindspot in one’s critical thinking, preserving that dissonance.
Have you considered this? I’d be surprised if you haven’t, and if you have – what is your explanation?

P.s. Cheers for the links, by the way.

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
(Ephesians 4:4-7)

In fact the whole of Ephesians 4 is a good place to go for this. The Holy Spirit creates the Church, and sustains it as the real presence of God on earth. Where the Church remains faithful to Christ we glorify God the Holy Spirit for it. Where the Church is weak we pray the Spirit to strengthen and sustain it.

I borrow Stanley Hauerwas’ phrase where he calls the Church ‘resident aliens’, a colony in a hostile world. I think the teaching of Jesus is intimately tied to the community of the Church – God’s people. In fact, the Church seems to be the place where the teaching of Jesus is first to be lived out, before proceeding from the Church into the World.

Yes, the Bible has a great deal to say about one’s conduct here and now but I would stress that the Scriptures exist for God’s people primarily. Thus it’s interpretation is best when in the context of God’s church. The Bible could be described as the manual of how to be Church.

It is a challenge to remain separate and yet engage with the world, and I’m reminded of Bonhoeffer’s work, again, as I was reading it the other day. He reminds us that there ought to be a close guard kept between the Church and the World. Partly to prevent too much ‘World’ getting in the Church, thus corrupting the people of God and partly to prevent too much ‘Church’ getting into the World, thus cheapening the Gospel.

There is a lot of material available bout Paul’s writing and the whole of the NT here:

http://www.ntgateway.com/

http://www.thepaulpage.com/

Sorry Ben – this is the foundation upon which I build my life – God is REAL – He offers me a relationship with Him – I have taken Him up on His offer and He is in my life. He has changed my life – as I submit to him he continues to work daily in my life – he fulfils my life like no other relationship or experience i have ever felt – as I am probably over half way through my life now I make this claim based on more than a few relationships and experience!! His way is perfect – the more I obey and submit and follow – the more my life becomes perfect too – through Him – the Holy Spirit has made a home in me – I am no longer mine but his.

Jesus is Real – he really existed – he really claimed to be God – I have not found one reason to doubt him. He changed the world – of this there can be no doubt. Some power for an ordinary man hey. He declared himself and His words to be the way the truth and the life – he was not a liar – they bring life changing experience – here and now and for eternity – he has certainly done that for me.

Anything I hear, am taught, is said to me is equated by me throught the funnel of the reality of God and his Word being True. I have never found anything that “man” has declared (that is not according to God’s word) to be in any way as satisfying as fulfilling as edifying as peaceful as calming as sure as reliable as every Word of scripture.

As I have just written to Nathan – if I am wrong Ben then don’t bother waking me up – I wouldn’t swap this life I am living – this joy and peace and fulfilment I am experiencing, for anything.

(good laugh Utube Ben – but please don’t mock my personal experience – you can deny everything I say but you can’t take away from me my personal experience – it works, I have all the evidence I can handle.

Made me laugh.

Beverly: Your supposition on my exposure to the Bible is sorely inaccurate; since I was a very young child, I have read the Bible, first it was in the form of bedtime tales read by my father, finally, as a student with academic sensibilities, interested in its origins and historical context. I know it very well. Is that strange? That I can know the Bible as well as I do, and not see merit in it, beyond its (great) value as literature?

At any rate: enough ad hominem please, like this:
” Present coherent and and well thought out argument from your own point of view and don’t re-iterate something you have heard or read from others. It seems to me you ignore anything you don’t like – churn out the same old arguments that I have myself been taught through education (any independent thought going on here?) and put up a mental block immediately you hear anything which is outside your world view.”
Come now, if my arguments and ‘world view’ are feeble, then please critique THEM. Otherwise, you run the risk of getting things wrong when it comes to what you think you know about me. Also, how can I “Present coherent and and well thought out argument(s) from (my) own point of view” while also “put(ting) up a mental block immediately (I) hear anything which is outside (my)world view”? Which do you want? Do I voice my criticism, in which case you say I am parroting others, or… what?
If you have run into my arguments before, then congratulations – you haven’t been living on another planet; it would indeed be very difficult for someone who has -
“engaged in your world view – I have been taught it through education, I have studied it myself, I have a husband and sons who are scientific by nature, I have looked into the claims made – read both sides of the argument”
– NOT to come across the myriad criticism of religion in general, and Christianity in particular. If you have superior knowledge to me of any faulty thinking in these arguments, then please, I would be delighted to hear them. I notice that they are not forthcoming, so far. Independent thought? I’m not the one who has a creed which proclaims precisely what I believe, shared by millions of fellow members of that creed. But enough of this… nit-picking. It is tedious and takes us nowhere of value.
What I can do is summarise that all of your arguments seem to rely on the assumption that the Bible is the revealed and true word of god – something I have never seen compelling evidence for. The case for it being divinely inspired is very, very low, on a par with many other holy books, and snatches of scripture. Since that is the primary hurdle, perhaps it is best to tackle the larger concept of religious ‘faith’, since that is the anchorstone of all the other claims. Perhaps that’ll come up in a future post… (hint-hint, nah Ian, just kidding )

Ian: Cheers for the clarification. I can sort of imagine what I think you mean. It jells with what others have said when I’ve inquired (though not many of them were studying theology, heh). This holy spirit, is this the same one you’re filled with once you accept Christ? I’m not mocking, I’d just like to be sure.
I’m interested in what you say here:
(“I think liberalism can creep into the church when we forget we are separate from the world, and try to interpret scripture in a way that makes sense of the world. The world does not make sense because it is broken, and so we interpret scripture in a way to be a community of believers in a broken world.”)
I presume the broken world is a reference to the Fall? Whereby humans were separated from god? I wonder how it is possible to be both seperate, and engaged with the world, given what the Bible does have to say on one’s conduct in the here and now… whether there are any grey areas dure to historical context no longer applying to 2010, in your opinion? For instance, the topic of this post, and the writings of Paul?
Cheers.

Once you have done that – maybe come back and start talking to me rationally and realistically about the bible. Present coherent and and well thought out argument from your own point of view and don’t re-iterate something you have heard or read from others. It seems to me you ignore anything you don’t like – churn out the same old arguments that I have myself been taught through education (any independent thought going on here?) and put up a mental block immediately you hear anything which is outside your world view.

Perhaps the difference is I have engaged in your world view – I have been taught it through education, I have studied it myself, I have a husband and sons who are scientific by nature, I have looked into the claims made – read both sides of the argument – seriously engaged in the claims science makes and have found it to be sadly lacking in any concept of a world where God doesn’t exist.

Now my personaly relationship with the creator of the universe on the other hand – not let me down once!

Your mention of science working is interesting – I would suggest that the only bits of science that we see working are those which amount to discoveries of what God had already put in place (electricity, gravity, physical law, natural law etc etc). The bits of science that appear to me to fall sadly short of “working” are the areas where they are trying to come up with theories to disprove there is a God. Interesting how they haven’t managed that yet!!!

I would add to Ian’s list of ways of biblical interpretation – the Holy Spirit promises to reveal personally to each one of us – we don’t have to rely on third party commentaties etc etc. The Holy Spirit speaks to me – brings scripture alive to me – uses it to show me error, to encourage me to advise me, to comfort me, to show me He knows exactly where I am at etc etc etc. It’s exciting – quite scarey the first time it happens but after a while it is just an amazing part of every day life.

Your response about judging God by his followers is a totally reasonable one, to be honest. In a by-gone age, the strongest testimony to the Gospel was the lifestyle of the Christian. In fact a changed lifestyle seems to be the main evidence of one’s encounter with the Resurrected Christ, from the Disciples and Paul to the whole early church. In fact can we say that when a person’s life isn’t changed, they haven’t met Jesus?

You asked me how God guides one interpretation of the Scriptures? Well I shall start in the Bible for that one:

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come (John 16:13).

It is the person of God the Holy Spirit, by whom the Church exists, who leads the interpretation of scripture. In my life, when I’m preparing articles and sermons that looks like prayer, and reading of scripture. If there is a part of scripture which is unclear I shall look up similar passages or check my study bible. If it is still unclear I’ll check a commentary. There are loads of commentaries available these days, by God’s providence. So, God has provided many resources for us to use. The community of faith is also a means by which God guides interpretation of scripture – seeking out those with wisdom and who have lived lives close to the Lord. And as time goes by I have more and more of my own experience to help me. These are all ways in which God has guided interpretation of scripture for others as well as me.

All of these are really rooted within the Church – God’s spirit working through his church interpret the church’s book – the Bible.

I think liberalism can creep into the church when we forget we are separate from the world, and try to interpret scripture in a way that makes sense of the world. The world does not make sense because it is broken, and so we interpret scripture in a way to be a community of believers in a broken world. It can also come about when reverence and fear for God is neglected and he becomes less significant than human beings. I’m sure there are other ways, but those two are the most obvious to me.